It will be interesting… /smirk… Signal 834 - Hhhhhhhhheeeeelllllllllllluuurrrrrrpppppp < turtle stain on the floor>
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@Mithinar
Hopefully the one south of you decides to pay attention to the people swinging weapons in his face instead of turning around to munch on you. But if he does go for you, at least I can use my reaction to protect you a little from that one. The other one is just outside the 15-ft range.
@ocelot
Gang Up does let a Rogue fight more like the other martials, but I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. The normal Rogue play is a little unpleasant (in my opinion, at least) because of how heavily it turns on whether you can get the enemies flat-footed; you have to either position yourself in often-dangerous places, burn half your turn Hiding, or build for things like Dread Striker, otherwise you just can’t do significant damage. Gang Up still has the requirement that you target things that are in melee reach of an ally (which catches you more often than you might think), but it lets you fight without putting yourself in more dangerous spots or worrying about more complicated mechanisms for getting flat-footed. Rogue is still the consummate skill-monkey as well.
The main difference between Gang Up and Unbalancing Blow is just consistency. UB will only trigger on nat-20 attack rolls against dangerous enemies like bosses since their AC will almost always be more than your attack bonus + 10. Assuming you attack twice on an average turn, that means UB has slightly less than a 10% chance to be triggered each turn. To me, that’s just not a big enough improvement over just relying on flanking to justify taking it when Rogue actually has other good lv1-2 feat choices (most classes don’t). Gang Up in a party with 2 reach-users will have probably 80-90% uptime, the only exceptions being ranged/caster enemies that keep some distance and even then only if your turn comes before one of us closes with that enemy.
UB definitely does get better on the Fighter chassis, but mostly against tougher minions and some miniboss sorts of enemies; a lot of bosses are still going to have enough AC to keep that crit chance at 5% unless they are already flat-footed or under another condition reducing their AC (like Sickened/Frightened/Clumsy). The thing is, the Fighter can better afford the danger of positioning to flank, and making enemies flat-footed contributes much less to Fighter damage too. Of course, Gang Up isn’t really an option for a multiclassing Fighter since it would cost a lv12+ feat to get. Really, I wish UB made the enemy flat-footed to everyone instead of just the user; that would make it worthwhile but not overpowered in my view.
Also, just to be sure we’re on the same page, Double Slice normally increases your MAP by 2 levels (so straight to the full penalty) on any subsequent attacks, just as if you had made 2 strikes. Having Graceful Poise doesn’t remove the MAP completely, it just reduces it to 1 level, as if Double Slice was a single Strike. Also worth noting you only get precision damage (like from Sneak Attacker) once on Double Slice, not twice.
As for getting access to the sabers on a Rogue, you can pull it off at 1st level if you go with a Versatile heritage Human to pick up Weapon Proficiency along with your Unconventional Weaponry as your Ancestry feat. However, the catch with Weapon Proficiency is that the Martial Weapons proficiency you get from it doesn’t improve, so even though the sabers become Martial for you instead of Advanced, you never progress beyond Trained with them, and that is simply not tenable (in addition to falling way behind on attack rolls, you lose out on bonus damage from Weapon Specialization). In fact, I’m not sure there even is a way to make the sabers viable weapons for a Rogue, so you may need to stick with Fighter or Ranger if you want to use those.
Yeah you would think the turtle that we engaged first would perhaps pay more attention to the three individuals surrounding it especially the big ole monk beatin’ up on it.
First turtle to hurt the poor little gnome is gonna get the ole Ki Strike!
One turtle already took a big bite out of him. 
Yeah it was the second one not near you that nailed me. I’m the obvious target for that one. Well just in case… time to think of a backup character…
Mith
@Cortillaen, regarding weapon proficiency with sabres, wouldn’t the Level 13 ancestry feat Unconventional Expertise give a rogue expert/master proficiency with sabers? Granted, I am not sure I care to wait that long…
I didn’t think about the once only precision dmg for double slice 
One nice thing about the rogue and safety while flanking is that they do have the deny advantage feature, whereas the fighter would have to use up a 10th level feat to get that.
Kind of a bummer about the critical specialization effects for rogue.
There is one way to keep the rogue’s proficiency with sabers at their max from level 2 onward, but I have been told by reliable sources that its generally frowned upon in polite society 
Gah! Turtle is gonna get that Ki Strike plus Flurry of Blows! Can you feel it turtle? It’s coming!
It’s possible that you could take risk the chance that the turtle has a reaction to attack and try moving away from it going through some of doors and moving around in behind us. Well, that is if I my memory of where you are positioned in relation to the turtle and to us is correct.
@ocelot
That’s right, I’d forgotten about Unconventional Expertise. That would work, though you’d be hurting on attack rolls and Weapon Specialization damage from lv5 until lv13. That’s severe enough I think you’d be better off (mechanically, anyway) using something else until lv13 and then retraining stuff to start using the sabers at that point. I’m also curious what that one way is.
@Mithinar
I wouldn’t worry too much about dying yet. I’ve got a Lay on Hands if needed, we’ve got a couple potions of healing floating around, and the turtle between us is probably about to get whacked hard so I can come get the other’s attention…
Red Mantis dedication 
Ah, that’s right. It’s a little more than “frowned upon”, though:
Red Mantis Assassin Dedication
Prerequisites trained in sawtooth sabers, deity is Achaekek, lawful evil alignment, member of the Red Mantis assassins
I think it would require a duel to the death with Valk. 
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Okay… I’m reading back through Ranger again…
Quick question. Does Twin Takedown suffer from the same sneak attack problem as double slice?
Also, looking at some of the other feats… it looks like Ranger does in fact win out vs fighter and rogue at level 20 assuming all 3 classes are wielding sabres. So impossible flurry is really amazing. Kind of wondering how often one happens to be standing next to an enemy at the beginning of a turn though. It definitely feels like something where circumstances would have to line up well to use.
But there’s not much going on in terms of combat improvements between level 1 and level 17 (or whenever the flurry edge improves).
I was looking at Monster Hunter and Legendary Monster Hunter too… getting the bonus only after a critical success on recall knowledge seems a bit underwhelming though not sure what else I would spend a feat on.
Double Slice only gets precision damage once simply because it says so. Twin Takedown makes no mention of that, so you would get Sneak Attacker’s damage on both Strikes, as long as the enemy is flat-footed; the downside is you take MAP on the second attack whereas both attacks are made before your MAP increases. And yeah, Impossible Flurry is nuts when you can use it. I think with a party of only 4, as long as Huulm and Valk know you can shred an enemy you start next to, you would have plenty of chances to use it. Interestingly, it’s best against stronger enemies that are more likely to survive a round in melee range.
Also, don’t forget Haste can really help set up Impossible Flurry since it lets you move first, and it’s only a 3rd-level spell; Valk will eventually get access to it, but he’s not going to have the spellcasting depth of a real caster to work with. If you have feats you don’t know what to spend on, just a single dedication could let you pick up some wands of Haste later on, and you could spend a 2-4 more feats to get spell slots of your own.
Archetyping Rogue for Sneak Attacker and such is viable, as is Fighter for a few things. Double Slice + Twin Takedown is a nasty combo, for instance, and picking up the Fighter Attack of Opportunity instead of the Ranger version might appeal.
As far as other options within Ranger, there are 6 main lines to Ranger feats:
- Melee dual-wielding - as you’ve noticed, it’s a bit sparse in the mid levels, but you’ve got Twin Takedown, Quick Draw, Disrupt Prey (the Ranger’s version of Attack of Opportunity), Twin Parry, Skirmish Strike, Twin Riposte, Second Sting, Improved Twin Riposte, and Impossible Flurry. Twin Takedown and Impossible Flurry are the obvious standouts. Twin Parry isn’t amazing without a Parry weapon, but AC is AC; Twin Riposte and Improved probably aren’t amazing options in your case. Skirmish Strike is pretty meh to me and can’t be used with Twin Takedown. Quick Draw is always nice for getting both weapons drawn.
- Ranged attacker - Rangers are probably the strongest ranged attacker around right now. Crossbow Ace (meh), Hunted Shot (Twin Takedown for bows), Hunter’s Aim (too situational imo), Far Shot (you already get extra range against your prey, do you really need to shoot 500+ feet very often?), Running Reload (making crossbows actually viable), Snap Shot (make AoO’s with a ranged weapon, but only adjacent enemies like a melee weapon), Deadly Aim (decent damage boost), Penetrating Shot (just lol), Distracting Shot (not bad but not amazing), Targeting Shot (it’d be decent if not for Press), Greater Distracting Shot (okay, this is freakin’ amazing and makes the prereq 100% worth it), Impossible Volley (not nearly as good as Impossible Flurry), Perfect Shot (… bleh. this is pretty awful for a lv18), and Legendary Shot (somehow even worse than Perfect Shot). The Precision edge is great for archers.
- Animal companion - you get a buddy who can actually be a solid battle pet. Companion’s Cry and Stealthy Companion are pretty meh, but all the companion upgrades are solid progression (and you get some action economy out of one), and Side by Side is excellent (it’s Gang Up for you and your companion, but only with each other).
- Monster knowledge - pretty good support features that turn your Recall Knowledge checks into party buffs, and you can Recall Knowledge for free when you Hunt Prey; it’s just really weak until 10th level. Monster Hunter, Monster Warden, Master Monster Hunter (this is what makes everything work), and Legendary Monster Hunter (this is just awesome). Also note that 1) these are circumstance bonuses and stack with just about anything, and 2) it benefits even more from Double Prey and Triple Threat. The Outwit Edge helps with making the Recall Knowledge checks, though the AC bonus doesn’t stack with Monster Warden’s.
- Trapper - If you like snares and traps, this is really the only set of feats that work with that. Snare Specialist, Quick Snares, Powerful Snares, Lightning Snares, and Ubiquitous Snares.
- Utilty - tons of stuff that provides various bonuses in and out of combat, like tracking enemies, guiding allies, granting the entire party Avoid Notice in addition to their own exploration activities, etc.
Naturally, you can combine a couple of these if they strike your fancy. An Animal Companion is pretty classic and is vastly superior to the pet options in 5e. The Monster Knowledge one starts slow but gets really good down the line at the cost of only 4 feats. Trapper seems potentially quite powerful, but it can be hard to use snares effectively.
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Y’all killing me inside with this ranger talk, because Ranger w/animal companion was one of the first things I was thinking of playing. Ranger with animal companion is one of my favorite things to play, one of my mainstay character choices from the old days for 3rd and 3.5 editions. I love how they do more with animal companions in Pathfinder to upgrade them over time with the animal companion feats.
But I’m playing a monk and a monk is what I will play in this campaign until he gets perma killed.
@Cortillaen, fantastic analysis as always. Thank you!
Still thinking…
So I came up with something completely different. Hope this isn’t too far away from what the party needs:
Mechanics Concept - touch caster providing crowd control, damage, and off heals via life leeching abilities
Roleplaying Concept - Emilie is the grand daughter of a much hated vampire count from the region of Ustalav. She was to be married into one of the other noble houses of Ustalav but shortly after her 18th birthday, the peasants of her family estate rose up against her grandfather, slaying him, her parents, and almost all of her family. With the help of a loyal household guard she was able to escape but she will never be able to return home as her ancestral estate was later taken over by the Palitinate. She fled to Isger to live with her wealthy cousins, but it was immediately apparent that she was viewed as an unwelcome parasite and eventually her relatives demanded that she leave. For the past several months, she has suffered even further setbacks, at times having to even resort to pick pocketing and homelessness. Despite these humiliations, she retains the bearing of one of noble birth both in her speech and mannerisms.
Recently, she has heard of the call to heroes and the trouble in Breechill. Sensing this may be an opportunity to restore her fortunes she has travlled to Breechill with all haste. Hopefully she isn’t too late!
Name: Emilie
Ancestry: Human (Ustalavian)
Class: Sorcerer - Undead Bloodline
Background: Noble
Alignment: Lawful Good
Religion: Atheism
Str: 10, Dex: 16, Con: 12, Int: 12, Wis: 10, Cha: 18
Starting Skills:
Intimidation, Religion, Society, Genealogy Lore, Thievery, Acrobatics, Deception
Starting Skill Feats: Courtly Graces
Starting Class Feats: Dangerous Sorcery
Starting Spells:
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Daze, Light, Shield
Level 1 Spells: Harm, Fear, Bane
This is Emilie presumably after her fortunes have been restored (level 10 or so?)
EDIT: I updated her starting cantrips to the correct number plus a couple of other changes. Added Daze for some ranged damage early on and replaced Spirit Link with Bane. Also removed Performance and added Deception with the intent of adding the Lie to Me skill feat at level 2.
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“It’s the bottom of the ninth, folks, and there’s the pitch-OH, it’s hit hard straight into left field!”
I’ll just mention a couple things that come to mind quickly:
- Undead gives the Divine spell list, which won’t have great control spells and generally poor damage ones. Divine is strongest in healing and buffing, though its damage spells do tend to improve against Fiends, Undead, and to a lesser extent Evil creatures as a whole. You might also end up stepping on Rockie’s toes a bit since the list isn’t huge.
- Note that Sorcerers don’t get their bloodline spells for free. Rather, you are required to choose your bloodline spell as the first spell you learn of each spell level you gain. The Undead spells of 2nd through 4th levels are pretty meh, and Horrid Wilting (8th-level) is really the only notable spell that isn’t already on the Divine list.
- The Undead focus spells aren’t terribly impressive (Undeath’s Blessing is kinda neat in letting you use Harm for damage and healing but it’s not a great damage spell to start with and you have to be in touch range for the blessing, a low damage one that gives you a decent THP buffer, and a weaker Slashing damage Fireball with meh riders), but few bloodline spells are.
- You’re gonna be awfully squishy if you’re planning to do touch-ranged stuff. I’m not certain how well the THP sources will hold up since they tend to be short-duration and obviously can’t help unless you use them before getting hit.
- I hope you prepare some Heal spells as well since it looks like Valk will be walking into traps a lot.
If debuffs and control sound fun to you, maybe look at the Hag or Aberrant bloodlines. Hag in particular can suit the theme of the character well, and the Occult list is the debuff spell list. It’s also just the second-largest list in general and has both off-heal options (like Soothe) and some nice utility that even Arcane lacks. It is not, however, any better for damage. Still, Synesthesia is the king of destroying bosses. Neither Hag nor Aberrant have much better bloodline spells than Undead, but the Hag focus spells are pretty solid while Aberrant’s Tentacular Limbs is both hilarious and great for delivering touch spells. Also, check out Illusory Object’s heightening effects; illusions are pretty impressive in this system.
If you want to do damage, the Arcane and Primal lists are really the kings there (oddly, Primal being better at it while also having half of the best healing spells from Divine).
I think my main concern here is trading in a potentially high-damage character for a pretty low-damage one, but enough debuffs and control can offset that. Just make sure you keep your defenses solid (by caster standards) since only 2 frontliners means the casters will be getting more attention. Please also note the Incapacitation trait on some spells. It basically reads “This spell is useless against bosses or anything of level more than double this spell’s level”.
That’s fair, it does seem like a lower damage output build. Thematically I really like both this build, and the undead bloodline though I can see how other bloodlines might be mechanically superior. It is a bit out of left field 
. I suppose I will make a couple of different characters tomorrow night while @Rando has the server up … the ranger build and maybe this one.
Just to clarify, I’m not trying to say the Undead bloodline is bad or anything (it seems to be pretty middle-of-the-road in power). It’s more that the Divine spell list isn’t great if your goal is control and damage with healing being a minor concern, so I’m worried about whether you’ll end up feeling like the character can’t live up to your concept. Divine’s strengths are healing/recovery, buffs, and protection, with damage, debuffs, and utility having a much weaker presence.
For example, 3rd-level spells are where Arcane/Primal start getting their staple AoE blasts like Fireball (6d6 to a 40ft-wide area with a Basic Save) and Lightning Bolt (4d12 to a 120ft line with a Basic Save). Divine’s damage options there are Chilling Darkness (single target, can miss, 5d6 damage, counteracts light, double damage against Celestials), Searing Light (same except counteracts Darkness and double damage against Fiends and Undead), and Vampiric Touch (single target, touch range, 6d6 damage to a living creature, and you get THP = half the damage).
As for control, that aspect of magic was nerfed the hardest in PF2e (compared to D&D5e and especially PF1e/3.5), with area control spells largely being shifted up one or even two spell levels and also reduced in area and/or effect. They wanted to make it impossible, or at least extremely unlikely, for a spell or two to shut down an entire encounter. Even shutting down a single creature is pretty much impossible if it is higher level than you (thanks to Incapacitation on all those sorts of spells). Divine also doesn’t get hardly any of the battlefield manipulation spells like the various Walls.
If you are going to be around tonight, tomorrow, or Wednesday and want to discuss various options or just bounce ideas off me, I’ll be available to hop into voice.
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Looking a bit further over the divine spell list and the undead bloodline, I think my biggest concerns are
-
Being able to fill a niche in the party. Part of me almost feels like this would be best in a slightly larger party, like if we had one more person. At that point, I kind of feel like some extra healing and magical support could be a lot more useful.
-
Being survivable in gulp melee. At low levels especially it seems really dangerous trying to land hits with Chill Touch, especially when we eventually encounter mobs with AoO. I feel like the danger is very slightly mitigated once False Life becomes available. Things seem to get a bit better at level 6 (IIRC I believe this is the level) where you get Drain Life, and then a bit better still at level 10 with a fairly inexpensive AOE for grasping grave. Level 12 vampiric exsanguination sounds like a lot of fun!!
Of lesser concern, there are some weird things about sorcerer spells that I didn’t know until reading a bit more in the core rulebook this evening. Like, apparently you only get one “signature spell” at each spell level that you can cast as a heightened spell and if you want a heightened spell any other time, you have to add it to your repertoire as a heightened spell. Still, part of the reason I find this stuff interesting is learning to work within constraints.
Overall though I think its a really cool, really thematic concept, and it seems like it would be a lot of fun to play, but as you pointed out, there are some pretty glaring limitations when compared to other spell lists. As usual, what seems to me like a fun build on paper may not be fun once the dice start rolling and proficiency bonuses and the like start getting tallied.
Anyway, I need to think some more, haha. And maybe we can chat Wednesday evening. I wanted to chat this evening but I was just really mentally exhausted when I got in from work. Thank you for the offer Cort!!
PS - On a side note, one thing that’s mildy annoying about the undead bloodline is having to take Talk to Corpse. Reading the description of that spell… oh boy… if ever there was an engraved invitation for a sadistic DM to mess with his players’ heads 
Are we playing at regular start time this week? I can’t remember if anyone was going to be late or not.