Pathfinder 2e - shortbow rogues viable?

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I had yet another character concept for the AoA adventure path.

cc @Cortillaen, @Rando, @Mithinar, @Ryukan.

Since we currently have plenty of melee and not much utility, I thought it might be fun/helpful to create a ranged rogue (plus I found another neat picture to use).

So I’m wondering if a short bow wielding rogue might be viable, and perhaps pickup a dedication into ranger as well to get feats like “Hunter’s Aim”. I haven’t done any math on this yet. Just curious if y’all think the idea is potentially viable or DOA. If nothing else, it seems like upgrading the one bow would be cheaper than two sawtooth sabers.

Oh, also I’m thinking of making a Nidalese human rogue with the Gloomseer ancestry feat and ultimately Darkseer as well. @Rando, I know, I won’t be splitting from the party or anything. Still seems neat to be able to legit sneak in the dark though (and not be a goblin/dwarf/etc.).

PS - I started a new thread on this topic b/c I felt like my posts in the main thread were getting spammy :see_no_evil:.

PPS - Shortbow seems neat because it doesn’t the volley trait, but I am concerned about the smaller damage die. Maybe sneak attack can make up the difference?

Also, question about the rogue’s poison feats. Can I use that with a bow? Seems like the two handedness would be an issue. I’m not sure how to read the 1+ entry for bows/hands on this?

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We could definitely use a good physical ranged dpser and some rogue utility is bound to come in handy.

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Awesome!

Here is what I’ve written down so far:

Mechanics Concept - ranged striking rogue, uses demoralize to acheve sneak attacks, more frequent criticals, and debilitations
Roleplaying Concept - a refugee from Nidal and adherant of Desna (not sure if some of these rogue feats (e.g. “you’re next”) are anathema to desna, or if that matters (I won’t be picking up any divine abilities)

Key:
‘*’ = will level up this skill
c = received from class
b = received from background
a = received from ancestry
g = general feat

Name:
Ancestry: Human (Nidalese)
Class: Rogue (Thief Racket)
Background: Shadow Haunted
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Religion: Desna

Str: 10, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 14

Starting Skills:

Intimidation*(b), Shadow Plane Lore(b), Stealth*( c ), Thievery*( c ), Acrobatics*, Athletics, Medicine, Crafting, Society, Diplomacy, Nature

Starting Skill Feats: Quick Coercion(b), Intimidating Glare

Weapons: Shortbow, Dagger

Feat Progression:

  1. You’re Next, Gloom Seer(a), Incredible Initiative(a,g)
  2. Unbalancing Blow
  3. Toughness (g)
  4. Dread Striker
  5. Dark Seer (a)
  6. Mobility
  7. Fleet (g)
  8. Sly Striker
  9. Natural Ambition / Nimble Dodge(a)
  10. Precise Debilitations
  11. Fast Recovery (g)
  12. Critical Debilitations
  13. Multitalented / Ranger Dedication (a)
  14. Farshot
  15. Diehard (g)
  16. Dispelling Slice
  17. Implausible Infiltration
  18. Feather Step (g)
  19. Impossible Striker
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No worries about too many posts. :rofl: I’m happy to talk mechanics until the sun goes dark.

The main problem with ranged Rogues is finding ways to make the enemy Flat-Footed to you so you can get Sneak Attack. You can’t flank with a ranged weapon, and you can’t benefit from the godlike power of Gang Up either. That eliminates all of the easy ways of getting the enemy Flat-Footed. Your options for getting them Flat-Footed are primarily becoming Hidden or better (usually by using the Hide action when you have cover from the enemy or are Concealed) or using Dread Striker if your party has a consistent way of making the enemy Frightened, such as a Bard with Dirge of Doom. There is also Twin Feint, but that only applies Flat-Footed for the second strike, meaning you only get the chance of Sneak Attack on the attack suffering from MAP.

Note that Hunter’s Aim is a 2-action activity that makes a single Strike, and can only be used after you use Hunt Prey on the target. It gets a +2 circumstance bonus to the attack roll and ignores Concealed if the target has it (which means you don’t have to make the DC5 flat check, which is just a 20% automatic miss chance), but it’s still really situational to be worth 2 actions.

The difference between shortbow and longbow isn’t as much as it might seem at a glance. They are only one step apart, which means an average damage difference of 1-4 depending on the Striking rune. Factoring in hit chances and the Deadly trait closes the gap a little more, too. I added them to my spreadsheet with maximum Striking runes, and the average difference in damage is only about 2.5 per first attack, 1.5 per second, and 0.5 per third. The main choice between the two seems to be whether you will need to shoot at short range or very long range more. Sneak Attack will be exactly the same between the two, so it’s a non-factor.

Poison Weapon and Improved Poison Weapon are generally not considered very good. You spend a class feat from your build, and it just lets you spend an action to gain 1d4 (2d4 for 2 class feats) damage if you hit before the end of the same turn. It’s not bad early on, but once you have a Striking Rune, you’re generally better off just attacking again, even without Sneak Attack. And the first Striking Rune is at 4th level. Also, as you noticed, it’s even worse for bows because you will have to Release the bow with one hand, spend an action applying the poison, and then spend another action to Interact and replace your hand on the bow. This leaves you only a single action to make a Strike, and if you miss, your poison is wasted.
Here’s where the book specifies that action to replace your hand:
image

A couple other considerations around going back to Rogue (ranged or melee):

  1. If you are at range, you will almost certainly be outside the 15-ft reach of my Champion reaction and the 5-ft reach of my Shield Warden (lets me Shield Block for you).
  2. Rangers (or Fighters with the Ranger archetype) get Hunted Shot, which is just Twin Takedown except with a bow. If you can’t get Sneak Attack at least once per turn, Rangers will do quite a bit more damage.
  3. If you are worried about the costs of upgrading 2 weapons, behold the glory that is Doubling Rings. For only 50gp at 3rd level or higher, you can copy the Potency and Striking runes on one weapon to any other weapon. At 11th level, a 1,300gp version of the rings copies property runes (Flaming, Frost, etc) to the other weapon, too.

Ultimately, the choice between Ranger/Fighter and ranged Rogue is about damage and combat versatility for the former, and tons of skills (including a broader selection of some really nice skill feats) for the latter. One caveat: if you went with a melee Rogue and pick up Gang Up, you can benefit from both my defensive reactions (which starts off just alright but will become really powerful later on) and the fact that I will activate Gang Up for any enemy within 10ft of me because I’m using a Reach weapon. I’ve played a few sessions as a Rogue in that very situation, and I can say it feels amazing to land 2 or even 3 Sneak Attack hits in a single turn (and you could go Thief Rogue to add your DEX damage to the Sawtooth Sabers, if you want). Having Sneak Attack essentially guaranteed most of the time puts the Rogue’s damage potential on-par or above the Ranger or Fighter, so that would make the trade-off mainly between combat options and skill options. I can also say Rogue has enough slack in the class feats to afford an investment in a spellcasting archetype, if that interests you.

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Some notes on Rogue feats to consider, because I type too much:

  • Trap Finder is excellent and allows you to use Avoid Notice to start battle in stealth while still being on the lookout for traps.
  • You’re Next can be good, but keep in mind that A) it uses your reaction, and B) Demoralize usually only inflicts Frightened 1, which wears off at the end of the target’s next turn.
  • Dread Striker can be really, really good if you have a consistent source of Frightened. A Bard’s Dirge of Doom is far and away the best source (all enemies in range are Frightened 1 for the duration, no save). Frightened is a good condition to inflict (it reduces all of their DCs, including AC), but trying to keep it going a lot can really eat into party action economy unless you have something like Dirge of Doom (a heightened Fear can be really good, too). And you can usually get more benefit from Gang Up than this.
  • Unballancing Blow will trigger on only 5% of your attacks against serious enemies, maybe 15% of the time against on-level enemies if you can make them Flat-Footed first. I haven’t done the math, but I don’t think it’s worthwhile. Also, this applies to ranged weapons, but it requires the Thief Racket, which does not.
  • Gang Up is, frankly, OP for melee Rogues. With my reach and a Monk’s positioning, it can give almost constant Flat-Footed against your attacks. Don’t forget that’s a -2 to the target’s AC in addition to activating Sneak Attack.
  • Opportune Backstab is outstanding for melee Rogues. It competes with things like Nimble Dodge for your reaction, but it’s an extra attack with no MAP and is guaranteed to also trigger Sneak Attack if you have Gang Up.
  • Sly Striker is really good if you don’t think you’ll be able to get Sneak Attack most of the time, such as shooting at range.
  • Sneak Savant is the first of several borderline-broken Rogue feats. It makes you only fail a Sneak attempt if you end the movement out of cover/concealment or if you critically fail the roll. Failures become successes for you. Just nuts.
  • Precise Debilitation is really good. It’s just competing with a lot of other really good stuff.
  • Critical Debilitations suffers from needing a critical hit, of course. I just tend to ignore these kinds of things because of the low activation rate.
  • Sense the Unseen is basically Sneak Savant in reverse. You can’t fail to locate an Undetected creature in your Seek are, though you can crit fail and it uses your reaction. Amazing if you don’t have anyone else who can do this (like a Cleric with See Invisibility), not as great otherwise.
  • Spring from the Shadows: normally you are spotted when you move from wherever you are Hidden or Undetected and before you can make an attack. This lets you get that first sneak attack in. Good, but Gang Up often obviates it.
  • Dispelling Slice is… just not good, honestly. It’s a 2-action single Strike that attempts a Dispel Magic at the same time. Super situational, and you will have at least one and a half spellcasters around who can handle that. And it competes with…
  • Blank Slate, which is literally broken. I expected this to be errata’d, but I’m kinda happy it didn’t. It makes you immune to magic senses. All of them. The end. Seriously, magical detection effects just pretend you don’t exist. Nethys, the literal god of magic, might be able to spot you, but that’s about it unless we encount a level 40 creature or something with 20th-level spells. Combine with Sneak Savant and Legendary Secrets to just say no to ever being caught.
  • Trickster’s Ace can be pretty sweet with the right spell. You basically get to steal the only really good unique spell Wizards get. Because 2e is all about screwing Wizards (I’m half kidding, half not).
  • Implausible Infiltration looks really good, but you can probably get in another way most of the time, you’d be alone in there, and Gaseous Form does the same thing as a 4th-level spell.
  • Impossible Striker is amazing and obviates every other “Help me get Sneak Attack!” feat, with 3 caveats: level 20, requires Sly Striker, and making enemies Flat-Footed to you is something you want to do anyway for that -2 to their AC. Competing with a 6th-level feat that gives more benefit 90% of the time is a little rough. It really ought to have just made all enemies Flat-Footed against you all the time.
  • Hidden Paragon is just dumb. The good-for-you dumb. It doesn’t always work, but a good stealth roll (oh look, you can be using stealth every time you move) makes you 100% invisible to everything for 10 rounds, you can attack without breaking invisibility, and not even anti-invisibility spells work against you.

Skill feats:

  • If you find a spot for it, Cat Fall is silly. The effect isn’t one that comes up all the time, but being able to do Altair-like dives later on is just fun.
  • Swift Sneak is super important if you want to sneak around in combat. If you end a Sneak action outside of cover/concealment, you get spotted automatically. So being able to move your full speed with each Sneak is vital (Fleet and other speed-boosters like Boots of Bounding/Speed and Longstrider are aces, too). It also lets you move at full speed while using Avoid Notice in Exploration mode.
  • Foil Senses is awesome when fighting monsters with non-vision senses. Which is a lot of them.
  • Legendary Sneak is the cheekiest of cheeky bastards. You can walk into the middle of a room, shout “Everyon, look at me!”, and then vanish. With Swift Sneak, you can literally replace your Stride with Sneak. And you can now choose a different Exploration activity and still be Avoiding Notice at the same time. With Trap Spotter, you can do 3 Exploration activites at once.
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These are amazing notes!!! I hadn’t even considered the Trap Finder - Avoid Notice interaction (or anything to do with exploration mode). Thanks also for confirming my suspicions about poison weapon. (It sounds like a cool skill but not very helpful at the end of the day) It also sounds like archery for the rogue is likely to be a bit more situational than I’d thought. I’ll make some revisions based on your notes and update my build.

In the meantime, how important do you think dark vision and low light vision are for rogues? Even if we don’t split the party, it just seems like sneaking in a light less dungeon while carrying a torch would be impossible. I still don’t fully understand the rules for sneaking and detection. I understand that its harder to see enemies in low light for example, but it seems like carrying a torch would (or at least should) impose a very steep penalty to stealth. And I’m assuming just walking around in the dark without dark vision means you’re effectively in the blinded condition.

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My impression is that Rogues are really intended to be in melee, just because of how hard it can be to get Sneak Attack at range compared to in melee. Plus my Champion really makes sticking close in melee even more attractive for a Rogue. However, a build doesn’t have to be optimal to be fun. :wink:

I would rate Darkvision as a big want for Rogues. Otherwise you are often dependent on the light sources of the rest of the party or you give away your position with your own light. However, there are Goggles of Night to help out with that starting at lv5.

I don’t have time right now, gotta get to bed, but I’ll try to remember to write up how stealth and visibility works tomorrow. It’s kinda hard to learn because the pieces of the system are scattered throughout the book, but the system itself is surprisingly good in my opinion.

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There are a lot of terms in this, so I recommend having Easytool’s library mode open so you can just enter terms as you encounter them to get the full rules entries for each one.
http://pf2.easytool.es/index.php

Okay, stealth. Let’s start with the game modes, first. PF2e is split into Encounter (combat or any other situation where lots happens in a short time and tracking peoples actions is important; 6sec rounds), Exploration (moving around a town/dungeon/whatever, no immediate threats though you might be on alert; events generally follow 10min time increments), and Downtime (longer periods usually between adventures; generally uses 1day time increments) modes. Each mode has actions that can be performed in it. Encounter actions are the most common ones and don’t have any special identifiers, Exploration has Exploration Activities like Avoid Notice (notice the Exploration trait), and Downtime has Downtime Activities like Earn Income (notice the Downtime trait). Generally you try not to use actions from one mode in another, but sometimes it makes no sense to not be able to pick a lock in Exploration mode, for instance.

Naturally, you’re not going to be doing much stealthy stuff in Downtime (though I wonder if you could justify using Thievery and/or Stealth for Earn Income…). In Exploration mode, the only relevant activity is Avoid Notice. Now there is one thing unclear about this, namely how many chances you have to fail your roll and be spotted. As written, it appears to be 2, but I think this is just poor wording since that is unreasonably harsh to sneaky sorts. There are also a couple points our GM will probably need to rule on. Here’s the order of events as I understand them:

  1. You declare you will be using Avoid Notice as your Exploration Activity and roll Stealth. There’s some discussion about whether instead the GM does a secret Stealth roll for you (for our game, this can be done by the player rolling into the tower), which would mean you don’t get to know how well you did yet.
  2. Your Stealth roll is compared against the Perception DCs of any creatures that have a chance to spot you. There is also some discussion about whether all enemies automatically have a chance to notice you or if only ones that are on-guard or standing watch do. I haven’t found where people are getting that idea, but I kinda like it. XD
  3. When we go to Encounter mode and roll initiative, you can roll Stealth instead of Perception. This roll also gets checked against the Perception DCs of enemies to see which, if any, notice you when the encounter starts. Any enemy that doesn’t notice you will treat you as either Unnoticed or Undetected, depending on whether they know you are around.

As you can see, 2 and 3 both have a chance for you to be spotted, which seems overly harsh. My best guess on RAI is that your initial Stealth roll is the only one that gets checked against enemy Perception DCs, and the second roll is just for your initiative. Alternatively, if the GM is comfortable using Encounter mode for you sneaking around (I’ve done this a bit and find it pretty fun), we could just ignore the initial Stealth roll and just do the second roll (for initiative and getting spotted) when we switch into Encounter mode.

Now, for Encounter mode itself, there are a few conditions we need to keep in mind. Also, know that each of these conditions applies individually to each creature’s ability to detect you. You might be Concealed but Observed to one creature, yet Hidden to another. There are 3 (and sort of a 4th) detection conditions:

  • Observed - The creature can see you (or sense you with any other Precise sense) clearly. This is the usual state of things in combat where you know where they are and have no penalties to hitting them.
  • Hidden - The creature knows where you are, but they can’t actually see you properly. The most common causes of this is someone becoming Invisible or taking the Hide action. The creature can still target you, but they have to make a DC11 flat check to see if they can hit. They are also Flat-Footed to you. Generally, any action other than Hide, Sneak, or Step makes you Observed immediately. If the action is a Strike, however, the enemy is still Flat-Footed for your attack.
  • Undetected - The enemy knows you are around but not where you are. They can’t target you at all, though they could still throw out an AoE and hope to catch you in it. The same action restriction as on Hidden applies.
  • Unnoticed - The creature has no idea you are in the area. This is not actually defined in the book, but we need a term for “Undetected and they don’t even know to look for you”. It’s important if A) we use Encounter mode for sneaking around, and B) you start an encounter unseen by anyone.

Briefly, senses in PF2e are divided into Precise (sight for most creatures, but hearing and even scent aren’t uncommon for some creatures) and Imprecise. The difference is that Imprecise senses can never make a target more than Hidden to the creature.

There are two other conditions that come up a lot related to stealth, but aren’t part of the detection states:

  • Concealed - You are obscured by fog or dim light (if the creature doesn’t have Low-Light vision). Attacking something that is Concealed from you requires a DC5 flat check to hit. Concealed applies individually like the detection states do (if a fog cloud is between you and one creature but not another, for instance). Being Concealed is also one of the three things that allow you to use Hide and Sneak. Creatures with other Precise senses may ignore this.
  • Invisible - You’re invisible, of course. You are always Hidden to things with only sight as a Precise sense, even if they succeed on a Seek attempt against you. Naturally, this also allows you to use Hide and Sneak (mainly to become Undetected).

There is also cover, which comes in 3 varieties and applies to creatures individually like the detection states do:

  • Standard Cover - You are partially blocked by a corner, a low wall, some crates, whatever. You gain a +2 Circumstance bonus to your AC against creatures you have cover from, to Stealth checks to Hide or Sneak, and to Reflex saves against effects your cover applies to. This is the third thing that allows you to use Hide and Sneak.
  • Greater Cover - If you have Standard Cover from a creature or are Prone, you can use the Take Cover action to instead gain Greater Cover and increase the Circumstance bonuses to +4. Note that doing this while Prone is really just a +2 to AC since you are also Flat-Footed.
  • Lesser Cover - If an attack or effect has to travel through another creature to reach you, you usually gain only a +1 bonus. Lesser Cover is also not sufficient to attempt to Hide or Sneak. If the creature is at least 2 sizes larger than you, you gain Standard Cover instead.

Last, here are the usual actions involved in stealthy things:

  • Hide - Make a Stealth check (the GM is supposed to do a secret one, but a lot of groups waive that) and compare it to the Perception DCs of all creatures you’re Observed by (nice since you might beat some but not all Perceptions at first, and then try again; you don’t have the chance of a bad second attempt revealing you to the creatures you beat the first time) but that you have Cover or Concealment from. On a success, you become Hidden to that creature. If you ever lose all Cover and Concealment from a creature (such as if they move to get a better angle or a fog cloud disperses), you automatically become Observed unless something else prevents that.
  • Sneak - You can only Sneak if you are already Hidden or Undetected to something (technically, you can Sneak anyway, it just has no effect except against creatures you were Hidden or Undetected to at the start). You Stride up to half your speed, and make a Stealth check (secret again) compared to the Perception DCs of the creatures you were Hidden or Undetected to (if you had Cover from a creature throughout your Stride, you get a +2, +4 for Greater, Circumstance bonus against them). On a Success, you become/stay Undetected to them. On a Failure, you become/stay only Hidden. On a crit fail, you become Observed unless something prevents it.
  • Create a Diversion - Not a Stealth action, but valuable: You make a Deception check compared against the Perception DCs of any creatures you like. On a success, you become Hidden to that creature, but only until the end of your turn or you do anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step (a Strike benefits as with Hide). If you need to ninja-vanish in the middle of combat and you don’t have Legendary Sneak, this is a pretty good option. It also makes you immune to Attacks of Opportunity if you succeed since you become Undetected at the start of your Sneak.
  • Seek - On the other side, a creature can make a (secret) Perception check and compares it to the Stealth DCs of every creature (and trap) in either a 30-ft cone or a 15-ft burst within sight. A success makes Hidden targets Observed and Undetected targets Hidden. A crit success makes them Observed regardless. Note that this isn’t needed if you have unobstructed (no cover/concealment apply) line of sight.
  • Point Out - You can make a creature that is Hidden or Observed to you but Undetected to an ally become only Hidden to your allies.
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Thanks Cort! The way that I’m reading the Avoid Notice entry on page 479. It sounds like there is only one stealth check roll to both determine initiative and if enemies notice you. But I’m wondering if everyone in the party has to roll the check? Maybe that is where Follow the Expert comes in.

Gang Up definitely sounds awesome, but on the other hand I’d like to play a little more crafty/sneaky - skirmishing, staying mobile, and flanking, and being stealthy. Gang Up feels more like a front line combatant thing to me and in that case maybe a fighter would be just as good? Right now, I’m thinking we can see how the first few sessions go and then I can adjust from there based on what seems to be working or what seems to be most fun.

I see your point about Dispelling Slice, replacing this with Blank Slate for sure. Also ditching critical debilitations and unbalancing blow, plus moving a couple of other things around.

Would quick draw be useful for switching between shortbow and shortsword/dagger ? Is it just 2 interactions to sheathe a bow and draw two melee weapons, or is it 1 interact for each?

Skills wise, I’m dropping Society and Crafting and picking up Deception (to legendary) and Performance (to trained). So that will complement my stats and (hopefully combat style) a little better.

Here’s what I have now:

Mechanics Concept - ranged striking rogue, uses demoralize to acheve sneak attacks, more frequent criticals, and debilitations
Roleplaying Concept - a refugee from Nidal and adherant of Desna (not sure if some of these rogue feats (e.g. “you’re next”) are anathema to desna, or if that matters (I won’t be picking up any divine abilities)

Key:
‘*’ = level up to legendary
c = received from class
b = received from background
a = received from ancestry
g = general feat

Name:
Ancestry: Human (Nidalese)
Class: Rogue
Background: Shadow Haunted
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Religion: Desna

Str: 10, Dex: 18, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 14, Cha: 14

Starting Skills:

Intimidation*(b), Shadow Plane Lore(b), Stealth*( c ), Thievery*( c ), Acrobatics*, Athletics, Medicine*, Performance, Deception*, Diplomacy, Nature

Starting Skill Feats: Quick Coercion(b), Terrain Stalker

Feat Progression:

  1. Trap Finder, Gloom Seer (a), Incredible Initiative (g)
  2. Mobility (or Quick Draw)
  3. Toughness (g)
  4. Dread Striker
  5. Dark Seer (a)
  6. Gang Up (or Skirmish Strike)
  7. Fleet (g)
  8. Sly Striker
  9. Multitalented (a) -> Ranger Dedication
  10. Precise Debilitations
  11. Fast Recovery (g)
  12. Basic Hunter’s Trick -> Hunter’s Aim
  13. Natural Ambition (a) -> You’re Next
  14. Sense the Unseen
  15. Diehard (g)
  16. Blank Slate
  17. Advanced Hunter’s Trick -> Farshot
  18. Feather Step (g)
  19. Impossible Striker
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Sounds like you have a good idea of what you want to make with the character, which is great. I wouldn’t worry much about survivability in melee, if that’s a concern. Half of my build is just to make sure I can protect other people (none of my defensive abilities except Shield Block work for me; only “allies”), but it only works when they stick pretty close, and I’ll be right in the thick of it myself. Here’s a few more things to keep in mind:

  • Create a Diversion is basically a one-shot thing for each enemy you try it on. Whether you succeed or fail, the enemies you attempted it against all gain a +4 bonus to their Perception DCs against further attempts for a minute.
  • Skirmish Strike just doesn’t look that good to me. It only allows you to make a Step before or after the attack, which is just one space. I could see it if you were doing melee a lot and used it on your last attack to force enemies to spend a turn moving, but does it give you enough benefit as a ranged attacker? If you’ve got a plan for it, though, go for it.
  • Quick Draw is nice to have any time, but it really shines if you plan to be slipping in and out of melee so you can switch weapons easily.
  • Note that Demoralize has a maximum range of only 30 feet. This includes the one as part of You’re Next.
  • I would say Gang Up is still worth it unless you plan to try to always stay out of melee. It’s just so good. XD
  • Something I didn’t realize until today: none of the Rogue Rackets apply to ranged attackers. Thief and Ruffian only work with melee weapons, and Scoundrel relies on Feint, which is also melee-only. That’s really annoying that the class has so little to support ranged Rogues.
  • Rather than Hunter’s Aim, I think Hunted Shot will serve you better most of the time. Aim is a 2-action single attack that gets a +2 bonus (granted, a bonus that will stack with just about everything) and ignores concealed (not terribly common), versus making 2 attacks with a single action. If you plan to fight at range, action economy will be your biggest problem since you will need to spend actions inflicting Frightened or other sources of Flat-Footed to get your Sneak Attacks. Hunted Shot lets you spend two actions setting up and still make two shots that turn.
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Ohhhh great point about the max range on demoralize. I didn’t even notice that. Yikes. I will have to rethink my approach.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I’m thinking I will go with Gang Up anyway. My problem is that I like to try odd things with classes, which… as you pointed out, the current list of rogue’s rackets aren’t really designed to do at all :joy:

So that sort of puts me back into relying on melee for most of my damage and using shortbow as a sort of situational weapon or possibly for opening attacks. I was hoping to perhaps use the shortbow to harass spellcasters too. Hmm…

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I really hope Paizo will release some new Rackets in the APG, at least one that can benefit ranged Rogues. It seems like a pretty big oversight considering how popular the “assassin sniping targets from the shadows” fantasy is.

If you decide to do melee most of the time, you can still use a shortbow (or a longbow if you really want along) along with Create a Diversion to nail enemy casters slinking around the back lines. They will tend to have the best Will DCs to resist Demoralize anyway, but Create a Diversion has no range limit and targets Perception DC, which tends to be lower on casters. Huulm can probably help with that, too. Between the two of you, I’d be surprised if most casters survive more than a couple rounds. And if he knocks them Prone right before your turn… well, they’re now Flat-Footed to you, and Prone grants no benefits against ranged attacks in this system. The Cleric might have a trick or two to help as well.

In the end, I can’t say what will be most enjoyable. All I can say is that I have enjoyed playing a melee Rogue immensely, and I hope you’ve got enough info to make an informed decision as to which way sounds best to you.

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This has been extremely helpful, Cortillaen. Thank you for discussing this with me and being patient with my indecisiveness! At this point I’m much more confident about “going rogue” :wink: If worst comes to worst I figure I can always retrain a feat or two.

Thanks again! :smiley:

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I’m glad I’ve been able to share some of what I’ve noticed in my own character building and seen in play. Pf2e doesn’t seem to have many “trap” options that are just always bad, but it does have a lot of caveats and quirks that can change how something actually plays. I just hope whatever you settle on is fun for you. Indecisiveness on a first character for a long campaign is just to be expected. :stuck_out_tongue:

And yeah, the retraining rules are pretty generous as long as we get plenty of downtime, which is expected between adventures. Just have to watch out for the things you can’t retrain: “ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores”, and anything you gain from one of those. Aside from those kinda core decisions, all feats you have chosen directly (except a tiny number of ancestry feats that state they can only be selected at 1st level and can’t be retrained), skill increases, and spell selections can all be retrained with enough time. Even basic features like your Racket can be “fixed” if need be.