[Finished] Pathfinder (2.0) - Age of Ashes Adventure Path (Thurs 8-11 EDT)

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So… regarding the coming Age of Ashes Apocalypse… (I guess the Dahakites will be happy.) how soon are we planning to move on to this hypothetical next campaign and what is it likely to be?

I have my eye on a spell casting archer of some sort. I’m sure the APG will have plenty of traps to choose from so I am looking forward to adding lots of those to my character!

(j/k on the traps but that seems to be my lot in life)

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I’m still stunned that we got through that with no deaths (and that only because Rando dropped the poison fangs thing). It really seemed to turn around when he focused his attacks on Valk, which makes me wish for some mechanism of properly drawing enemy attention. A spell or focus spell that forces all enemies within a certain range to make a Will save or be unable to attack any of my allies as long as I’m conscious or something like that.

@ocelot
The APG coming in July is supposed to have an Eldritch Archer archetype, so if you wanted to make a spell archer sort of character, it would be possible to retrain some feats into that archetype once it releases (and maybe a kind GM would let you swap the feats out without even needing the retraining period).

I really don’t think your current character is bad at all. Might want to swap out a couple spells and/or discuss tactics with the party (something I was planning to do in-character after this book), but that’s easy enough to do. The Arcane list has issues I won’t belabor, but it’s strength is having both a wide array of damage spells and a lot of debuffs targeting all three saves. Both of those will be helpful in their own ways as you get access to more spells. I’m sure missing that guy’s ridiculous AC over and over didn’t feel very useful, but that was more the dice screwing you rather than a build issue.

I will note that your claws thing (and I know it’s just something you get automatically) is probably more useful for the energy resistance and triggering the AC bonus than for the claws themselves: Sorcerers just don’t get the proficiency or ability scores to give weapon attacks a decent hit chance, and the damage scaling on them is abysmal (basically equal to a Shortsword used by a Rogue who can’t Sneak Attack). Cantrips will almost always do better for you as a basic attack option. Also, just to make sure it wasn’t overlooked, the AC bonus is only for 1 round; the energy resistance lasts the full minute though.

Side note on PF2e battle tactics: Debuffs really are critical to fights like that. Enemies in general have higher base numbers than PCs, and being at lv+3 ramps that up like crazy. Debuffs seem like the key to pulling the enemy’s stats back down to be manageable. I was thinking that Fear’s decent chance of inflicting -2 to everything for a round, even though it ticks down, is still potentially quite useful for setting up another, longer, debuff like Sickened, Enfeebled, or Stupified since that the enemy would be saving against the second debuff with that -2 penalty. As we advance, putting Heroism on Huulm and Valk (or whatever martials we end up with) will become important, too.

Another aside: I’ve noticed now in three different games that levels 3-4 seem prone to unusually dangerous encounters. I think the reason is because a creature two or three levels above you at those levels crosses the lv5 boundary where martials all get Expert in their weapons (and possibly the lv7 one where casters get Expert in their traditions), so the creature’s stats are actually even higher than just the level difference would normally suggest, to keep pace with the expected PC improvements. If so, I imagine we’ll see a similar effect around levels 11-12 with the lv13 boundary for martials getting Master, though it might be less pronounced since weapon and armor runes both upgrade around 10-11.

In short, at 4th level, a lv+3 enemy actually ends up with stats that make it seem more like a lv+4 or lv+4.5 enemy in all aspects except HP, and a lv+4 enemy is probably borderline impossible.

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In hindsight, I think things started going wrong last night when I climbed down the rope to hang with Valk and Huulm. I would’ve been much better off letting Anna hang back from the safety of that overlook and just blast cantrips and dispels as needed. Then again, maybe that barghest would’ve just clambered over it with no problem in his huge state and Anna would’ve then found herself in really big trouble.

Incidentally, I think the Dispel Magic was the most useful thing I pulled off last night. I’m not quite sure I understand the wording of the counteracting rules but the part that makes me sad is the extreme difficulty dispelling anything higher than your spell dc + 1. Honestly, I find the counteracting rules to be really oddly written but I reckon there’s some logic behind it that I’m not fully appreciating.

I’m kind of regretting putting 16 into dex given the poor scalability of dragon claws. Feel like I would’ve been better off with an additional 2 points in int for arcana checks. Still, it’s a fun spell when it works.

Kind of also feel like Mirror Image or Blur might’ve been a good spell to cast on Huulm or perhaps Rockie last night but neither are currently in my repertoire.

PS - I just looked up the Barghest entry on archives of nethys. So yeah, hanging back on the ledge likely would’ve been a grave error had @Rando not been pulling any punches. Why exert yourself climbing over a ledge when you can just dimension door right behind the party sorceress? Good grief.

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  • Hanging back some (but not too much; you have to be in range of your spells and cantrips, which usually puts you within 1 Stride of some enemies, so being close enough for Valk to use his divine revenging may work out more in your favor sometimes) may work well in some places. It probably just depends on the terrain.
  • Yeah, starting with 14 Dex is good for a caster (lets you eventually get up to 20 for that max +5 to AC), but I probably wouldn’t go higher than that in any secondary ability score. The problem with the claws is you are still a Sorcerer, so you are stuck with only Trained until 11th level, and you never get above Expert. The math appears to be built around a non-Fighter martial, in that they always have about a 55-60% chance to hit against an average, lv+0 enemy’s AC. Thing is, non-Fighter martials get Expert at 5th and Master at 13th, so you are at a -2 compared to them for levels 5-10 and 13-20, a whopping 14 levels. Since you are using a secondary ability score to hit, you are also at a -1 or -2 (half and half split) for all levels if you start with a 14 in that score, or a -0/-1 (same split) if you start with a 16. You’re almost certainly not using your Apex item for that score (versus using it for your casting score), so that’s another -1 at levels 17-20.
    • On rereading the claws effect, I do think you could use runed handwraps to add the +1-3 potency bonus and some extra damage scaling from Striking runs to the claws, but the damage would just be adding 1-3 d4s. I’m pretty sure cantrips will still outperform that for you, and the cost of keeping weapon runes up to date is significant.
  • Note that while Blur can be cast on an ally, Mirror Image is self-only.
  • Barghest’s have some nasty tricks to be sure. On the bright side, using Dimension Door would have still cost him 2 actions, and I don’t recall for sure whether there was actually space behind you for him. Can’t use it to 'port into a space too small for you.
    • Fun fact about Dimension Door: if you’re a Wizard or Sorcerer with a familiar who rides around on your person, you can’t use the spell. Because reasons.

So, Dispel Magic. Instead of being a unique thing, it just uses the new Counteract rules. They also get used for any opposing spells (light and darkness, for example), counterspelling, curing poisons/diseases magically, and generally anything that pits one magical effect against another. They’re kinda clunky and hard to read, but they’re actually pretty slick once you understand them. Here’s my rundown (book rules at this link):

  • First off, the Counteract Level of an effect is the level of the spell creating the effect or (if it’s not caused by a spell) half the level of the effect’s source (creature or hazard), rounded up.
  1. Identify the Counteract Level of both the counteracting effect and the effect to be counteracted.
  2. Roll with your relevant modifier (sometimes a skill, but usually your spell attack roll bonus) against the DC of the effect. This is usually the spell DC of the effect creator or the DC of the ability or hazard causing the effect, but sometimes it’s not clear. If no DC presents itself, use the level-based DC for the level of that creature or hazard.
  3. With your roll result and the two Counteract Levels (your effect’s and the effect you are counteracting), consult these outcomes:
    • Critical Success - Counteract the target if its Counteract Level is no more than 3 levels higher than your effect’s Counteract Level.
    • Success - Counteract the target if its Counteract Level is no more than 1 level higher than your effect’s Counteract Level.
    • Failure - Counteract the target if its Counteract Level is lower than your effect’s Counteract Level.
    • Critical Failure - You fail to counteract the target.
  4. Of note in some cases where the language of an effect isn’t clear, “Successfully counteracting an effect ends it unless noted otherwise.”
  5. Conditions and such that can outlast the duration of the spell that caused them do not end if the spell is counteracted. There aren’t a lot of examples of this, but they do exist.

So an example of counteracting: An enemy has Charmed your ally, and you really need that ally to get back in the fight, so you cast Dispel Magic on them. The Charm effect is a 1st-level spell, and your Dispel Magic is a 2nd-level spell. This means the Counteract Level of each is 1 and 2, respectively. You roll with your spell attack modifier against the DC of that creature’s Charm spell (his normal spell DC), but you aren’t lucky enough to beat his ridiculous DC, and you get a failure. The Charm is still counteracted and ends because you got the Failure outcome, and Charm’s Counteract Level is lower than your Dispel Magic’s.

Another example: The same enemy has cast Enlarge on himself, heightened to be a 4th-level spell. You cast Dispel Magic on him to remove it. His Counteract Level is 4, and yours is 2. You roll with your spell attack modifier against his spell DC and get a Success. You still fail to counteract his Enlarge since your Counteract Level is 2 below his; you would have needed to get a Critical Success to dispel it.

Example the third: You are a 7th-level Wizard with Clever Counterspell and attempt to counterspell a Fireball cast by an archwizard by using Chilling Spray. You know this archwizard is powerful and you probably won’t beat his spell DC in the counteract check, so you expend a Chilling Spray heightened to 4th-level, your highest spell slot. You actually get a nat20-powered Critical Success on your counteract check. But you still fail to counteract the Fireball because your party has no business challenging this particular archwizard, and he is casting Fireball heightened to an 8th-level spell. Your party dies horribly.

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Thank you for the additional clarification @Cortillaen, that is very helpful indeed!

If I’m understanding all of this correctly then, it sounds like Dispel Magic is of very limited utility in the long run because it can’t be heightened, right?

As I recall it, we climbed down a 10 ft ledge into the throne room. The throne room area itself was so small that he could hit us pretty much anywhere with his AoO, but the ledge from the entrance tunnel had a few squares out of range.

Anyway, I’m thinking I will rework Anna’s spell repertoire like so:

  1. True Strike (bloodline spell), Chilling Spray (signature spell), Mage Armor, Magic Missle

  2. Resist Energy (bloodline spell), Acid Arrow, Blur, Dispel Magic

I guess level 3 spells are a moot point now, but I had planned on

  1. Haste (bloodline spell), Fireball (or possibly Lightning bolt if Rockie’s Fireball was sufficient), Slow and/or Blindness.

EDIT:

Ah, I believe this answers my question regarding Dispel Magic’s spell level: paizo.com - Forums: Rules Discussion: Can Dispel Magic counteract high level spells ?

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  • Haste is awesome for Martials and usually really good for casters as well. Having that as the mandatory bloodline spell is excellent.
  • Rockie’s Fireball will be exactly as powerful as yours. The main trade-off between Fireball and Lightning Bolt is that Fb’s burst AoE makes it easy to hit many enemies, while LB does more damage, is a less commonly resisted damage type, and sometimes is easier to angle to avoid allies in a brawl. Given HP pools in PF2e, I actually like Lightning Bolt a little better; Fireball honestly doesn’t get to shine much unless you’re fighting a horde of lv-2 or weaker enemies.
  • Slow is far and away a better debuff than Blindness. Blinded might be the worse condition, but it’s a single-target debuff with Incapacitation. They both target Fortitude now, sadly (1e Slow targets Will), but avoiding Incapacitation lets Slow still be worth trying on a boss (even if they succeed on the save, you still steal one of their actions, which is usually a worthwhile trade against a boss), and Slow also has that awesome 6th-level heightened effect (combine with Reach Spell for best effect). Note that Blindness is the better debuff specifically against casters and ranged attackers of no more than twice the spell’s level.

Yep, you can always heighten spells (in your case by knowing them at that level or having them as a signature spell), even if they don’t list a heightening effect for the level you want to use.

507

So the official release of FGU is getting delayed a bit, but A) the open beta is out and apparently pretty solid, and B) a lot of products (including Age of Ashes, Extinction Curse, and various 1e APs) have Line of Sight stuff prebuilt into the maps.

EDIT: Also, it appears they are also doing prebuilt LoS on some of the map tile sets you can get, which is pretty sweet.

EDIT AGAIN: Forgot to mention that owning an Ultimate License already gets you a 40% discount on a FGU Ultimate license.

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Slightly related: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forums/showthread.php?50591-FGU-Sharing-LOS-Definitions-for-Maps-Crowd-Project

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Since we’re not continuing this AP, I thought I’d bring the BBEG from the final module and stick them in the last encounter you’ll face tomorrow. You thought the Barghest was tough? Who’s ready to get their ass kicked?

510

Assuming it’s that dragon from the cover, I can tell you about how that would go: Dragon wins initiative by a mile, lines up, and breathes. We all critically fail the save, then we all take 20d6 x2 fire damage and die. :stuck_out_tongue:

Besides, we still need to kick in Malapunk’s teeth for making us fight that Barghest.

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In other news, I’ve got me some Fantasy Grounds Unity.

[Edit] Ultimate of course.

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:laughing: I actually just picked it up as well. Figured I’ll use it sooner or later and might as well get the discount.

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So I said, going forward, I would never buy another pre-made module for Fantasy Grounds and just enter stuff myself.

Well…

The pre-made modules for FG have the line-of-sight occluders already built into the maps ready for FGU, including terrain (including elevation), doors, and secret doors, etc.

Neat!

[Edit] Loading the existing campaign into FGU (copy and paste campaign folder) seemed to work just fine!
We’ll use regular FGC tonight.

[Edit] FGU = Fantasy Grounds Unity, FGC = Fantasy Grounds Classic

514

So here’s my FINAL character idea:

Name: The Widow
Ancestry: Whisper Elf
Background: Farmhand
Class: Barbarian (Spirit Instinct)
Alignment: Neutral
Religion: Pharasma

Class Feats:

  1. Sudden Charge
  2. No Escape
  3. Fast Movement
  4. Cleave

Ancestry Feats:

  1. Forlorn
  2. Elven Instincts

General Feats:
3. Improved Initiative

Skills: Athletics (not sure about the other two)

Character history:

It is said that many years ago the elven woman known as “The Widow” was once married to a young human farmer with whom she had several half-elven children. One day the followers of the Whispering Tyrnant visited their defenseless home. The cultists murdered both her children and her husband, and then promised “to make matters right” by animating their corpses as undead. Afterall they said, this way they could all live together as a family and not die long before the Widow herself. The young woman lost her sanity that day and grabbed the nearest weapon she could find… a humble farming scythe and proceeded to cut down both the cultists and the her reanimated family in a frenzy of grief stricken rage.

Today she continues to adventure, perhaps tormented by the ghosts of her deceased family, as she searches for death on the battlefield but it always eludes her. She has lain many of the living to rest and many more of the undead to final peace. Ironically her scythe and grim demeanor sometimes lead people to believe she herself is a follower of Urgathoa, a fact that she has often used to her advantage when seeking vengeance against other cultists.

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Um, thanks for your interest Ocelot, but I’m sorry this campaign is [Finished].

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Oops.