[Finished] Pathfinder (2.0) - Age of Ashes Adventure Path (Thurs 8-11 EDT)

Sure. :grinning:

I’d love to see a ranger in action. My first reaction upon seeing them in the CRB was the same are pretty much all game systems since AD&D; i.e. why is this a separate class and still a thing? Is it different enough from a fighter with the appropriate background/skills? Or a rogue with the appropriate skills? Or a fighter/druid?

Just glancing over the feats available to them we’ve got all sorts of options for the ranger that look nice in theory: ranged, dual melee, animal companions. The only things missing are two-handed weapon fighting (covered by the barbarian and fighter) and spellcasting (though a spellcasting Ranger variant - maybe in the form of an archetype - is coming in the APG.)

I’d love to see one in action.

As for your monk dilemna… We are starting to get into encounters with “intelligent” humanoids more as well as encounters with multiple opponents; stuff we didn’t see on the first floor of the castle. Moving forward we are going to see more of that and casters are going to start showing up as well. A’soO are going to become more useful. (Try sounding out A’soO out-loud without giggling…)

Yeah the fighter Dedication is doing nothing for you besides giving you training in a skill. My gut reaction is the monk Stand Still feat looks way more worth it. Keeping fighter dedication gives you access to the fighter feat list, but the monk list is pretty awesome as is. Sure Combat Reflexes is great for fighters, but as a lvl 10 feat you’ll only be able to grab it at lvl 20 with Dedication! The fighter AoO will work against casters to though, not just movement. Ugh, decisions!

Oh that’s okay! I totally understand your wanting to try a different class and I will absolutely support whatever class you settle on!!

It’s not my decision to make but it would be super awesome if either Huulm or Valk could pick up an AoO. Would make those baddies think twice about bum rushing our casters. But that’s okay if not because Anna will claw out their eyes if they get too close!

@Ryukan
So the point of AoO and Stand Still having both “move action”* and “leaves a square during a move action” is that “move action” one covers the moment a creature uses any action with the Move trait, including some actions that don’t leave a square (like the action Stand), and “leaves a square during a move action” covers cases where someone uses a Move action like Stride while outside your reach but then moves through your reach. Also note both of those exclude forced movement like being Shoved.

Both AoO and Stand Still are Reactions (they’ve got the looping arrow icon). The big difference between AoO and Stand Still is AoO triggering on Manipulate actions. Manipulate actions include all spells with a Somatic component (almost all 2- and 3-action spells) and Interact actions (like retrieving or using an item). However, do note that while critical hits with AoO disrupt Manipulate actions, critical hits with Stand Still dirsupt Move actions. So AoO can stop a spell cast, but Stand Still can force enemies to spend an extra action to complete the movement they were attempting.

My thinking is that AoO is clearly the better reaction but not by a huge amount. AoO will trigger off of movement the vast majority of the time, and triggering off Manipulate actions and ranged attacks really just forces casters and ranged attackers to eat the attack no matter what they do. Monks, if they invest in Athletics, can use Grapple to hinder spellcasters about as much as the chances of a disrupting AoO, and Monks have other options for messing with casters.

Also, Stand Still does not interact with your MAP from your turn. MAP goes away at the end of every turn, so you start with no MAP on each other creature’s turn. The text in AoO was probably just a reminder of that rule, but it actually has an interaction with some high-level Fighter feats that can let them use more than one AoO in single turn, which would normally incur MAP on the second and later ones. It could also benefit them in the extremely rare case of an enemy using a Reaction with the Move or Manipulate traits during the Fighter’s turn.

I will say, if you don’t plan to take any of the extra feats to advance an animal companion, it’s probably not worth trying to get. A better option might be for someone (like Rockie) to take the Bonded Animal skill feat and use that on the second Warg pup to get a “Helpful” animal buddy that will be willing to do things like low-threat scouting, tracking, etc (things that don’t put it in danger or cause it too much trouble). Just come up with whatever reason why one of them can’t/won’t fight (since the other one will be getting the progression feats, I assume).

And don’t make me go copy my gigantor post on Ranger stuff from a month back.

@ocelot
The problem with trying to get AoO on Valk (it is available as a 6th-level Champion feat) is that it competes with Retributive Strike for his Reaction, and Retributive Strike gives a little damage mitigation in addition to also making that Strike. So I just don’t see it being worth picking up for him. He’ll be taking Shield Warden instead, which is kinda useless at that level (it also competes with Retributive Strike for his Reaction, and it only offers a bit more damage mitigation in exchange for no Strike), but it’s needed for the ridiculous Shield of Reckoning at lv10. SoR lets him use Shield Warden and Retributive Strike as a combined Reaction. Levels 6, 8, 10, and 14 are where Valk will pick up the core of his build and turn into a bubble of “Hitting my allies will hurt you more than them”.

@Rando
I found another reason to be disappointed with Wizards. Every multiclass caster archetype has a Breadth feat that gives an extra spell slot of every level except your two highest. The Breadth feats for Sorcerer and Bard also add an extra spell to your Repertoire for each new slot added, so they get a bunch more spells known out of it. Does the Wizard one let you add any extra spells to your spellbook? Nope.

*They really should have decided on some textual mechanism to convey when they are using a word to evoke the trait with that name. The book never really clarifies that “a move action” means “an action with the Move trait”, even though that is apparently how they use it. Likewise with “attack action”.

First off, thanks for all the info and clearing up my questions.

@Ocelot I will definitely be getting some sort of AoO soon here, whether I stick with Fighter Dedication and pick up Opportunist at lvl 4 or get Stand Still when there is time to untrain stuff and train replacement stuff. I am gonna stick with Monk for now though and save Ranger for if Huulm gets taken out at some point.

@Cortillaen So I kind of feels like a toss-up at this point kinda sorta. I could do something with the class feat freed up if I avoid the Fighter archetype stuff, but then again it sounds like Opportunist gives me more options to use AoO and the bonus of having utility vs. casters. I will look over my build plan and what I could take in Monk feats to replace the freed up class feat if I don’t take Fighter Dedication+Opportunist and just go with Stand Still. I will be doing one or the other for an AoO. If there is something that I don;t have in my Monk feats that I cold pick up that would be better than wasting a feat on Fighter Dedication I will do that. After some build review I’ll post with thoughts again.

I think I will drop my dreams of warg companion hehe. I won’t be doing the Bonded Animal feat because that requires Expert in Nature and I won’t be delving into Nature like that, I have no plans to train nature beyond maybe Trained. If I got Stand Still and dropped the Fighter Dedication stuff I could take that one Ranger Feat for Animal Companion, but that doesn’t sound a whole lot more useful than the Bonded Animal. I’ll leave the wargs to Rocky.

Well the Bonded Animal Feat I could Go with, But that would mean I would need someone else to take Thievery. At this point I cannot dump Crafting or Medicine. We need the medicine progression so that I can minimize the downtime between encounters. And Crafting just because. So I would need to drop Thievery to train up Nature to get that Feat.

And I could definitely figure out a rational reason why one would become a companion and the other wouldn’t.

Mith

Awesome! So Anna just needs to survive until level 6. Incidentally that is when she get’s her dragon breath focus spell so that will be a fun level.

I have to say that I’m very satisfied with this new character. Already looking forward to next Thursday!

Unrelated question: Would anyone object if we basically off-screen the hauling of the bear back out of the dungeon (hey, it’s literally a dungeon for once) during our next rest? I figure we’ll have to knock him out again at some point, but at least he’s trussed up to make it easy.

Incidentally, the rules for how long he’ll be out cold are on p.622:

If you are unconscious and at 0 Hit Points, but not dying, you naturally return to 1 Hit Point and awaken after sufficient time passes. The GM determines how long you remain unconscious, from a minimum of 10 minutes to several hours. If you receive healing during this time, you lose the unconscious condition and can act normally on your next turn.

We also need to decide what to do with the two Charau-Ka we still have tied up since Mith came up with a better plan for dealing with the bear. I’m pretty sure all of our rope is currently occupied keeping all three of these things bound right now. Valk is for throwing them into the undead area as a distraction.

@Mithinar

I can see that thievery is valuable, but is it essential? I was just reading through the skills section again and under Athletics there is an action called Force Open. I had expected that a failed check might result in damaged items in, say, a chest, but the entry only seems to mention that the door/container itself is the only thing that breaks.

With Huulm and Valk being at least somewhat skilled in Athletics, plus I suspect we’ll have a knock spell on hand, it seems to me that we don’t need thievery for locks. And as for traps, with all the magic at our disposal, and a little ingenuity I feel like we can handle/mitigate these maybe 80% of the time.

I may be wrong, being so new to PF2, but thievery feels like more of a nice to have than a must have skill.

That is fine by me :smiley:

That is a bit of a dilemma, that one. Anna is probably going to at least want to seek guidance from Warbal (or whoever the mayor of Breechill is). So tying them up and returning them to town is probably what she will advocate.

Did we ever find a key to the cells upstairs? We could leave them in the cells with enough food and water to last until we return to town. I think Anna would be cool with that.

@Rando, couple of questions.

  1. Are we on a quest timer? I don’t think we’ve encountered any wandering monsters or anything that would suggest a cost for spending time returning to town/resting/refocusing.

  2. Aside from the earn income downtime action afforded by lore skills, is there anything that Dragon Lore can do that Arcana can’t?

Heh. Heheh. It’s all fun and games until you end up in a Complex Trap that involves the whole room. Overall, I agree that the Rogue skillset (whether brought by a Rogue or not) is less necessary than ever before, but some traps I’ve seen in other games are downright evil if you can’t directly disarm them; we will have to be prepared for those if we want to drop Thievery altogether. Also note that Anna will have to bring the Knock spell if we want to have that option. It’ll be a long time before I can even prepare it, and prepared spellcasting is brutally punished for preparing anything you aren’t 100% sure you will need.

I’m not really sure what guidance there is to get. If you’re looking for a “don’t kill them” solution, I think the only one we might get is throwing them back through the portal, assuming A) we can control when it opens and B) we aren’t concerned about a buildup of forces on the other side should we ever need to go there ourselves. They definitely didn’t leave any doubt about their devotion to the the plan of unleashing Dahak to burn the whole world down, and they will happily do so even if it kills them in the process. Valk, at least, is comfortable putting fanatical doomsday cultists to whatever use we can regardless of whether they survive. He’ll save his concern for people who aren’t dedicated to ending the world.

From our character perspective, we at least know from our captives that Malaria-lunk is somewhere (it wasn’t entirely clear if he is down below or on the other side of the portal or somewhere else entirely) trying to do something with the portal that will let Dahak destroy the world. My impression from the Screeching Tweedles was that it isn’t imminent but might become so in the near future. Unless Rando has other news, I think we’ll be good to rest once or twice as we continue clearing this place, but I don’t know if we want to burn a full day running back to town.

Apropos of nothing, here’s a list of new weapons that will be appearing in the Gods and Magic book coming out in a couple weeks:

  • Machete
  • Meteor hammer
  • War razor
  • Bladed scarf
  • Fighting fan
  • Khopesh
  • Mambele
  • Naginata
  • Nine ring sword
  • Polytool
  • Tekko-kagi
  • Urumi
  • Bola

To be clear, I’m not saying it wouldn’t be nice to have somebody at least trained in thievery (it absolutely would!) but I don’t think we need somebody heavily invested in this (like legendary skill level or even master or perhaps even expert) unless that’s really what they want to do with their character.

I believe Anna can take on Knock at 4th level (via the Arcane Evolution feat which I was planning to take anyway) and that sounds like a fun spell to have so I’m happy to take that on !

Regarding skills I plan to level up, I’ll be taking Diplomacy (instead of performance), Arcana (to support casting related stuff and recall knowledge relating to dragons) and Acrobatics (to support flying at 10th level and beyond)

BIG Bumble!!!

Remember when I had y’all travel a couple hours between Citadel Altaerin and Breachill?

Apparently they’re a mile apart… :blush:

So what I’m hearing you say,is, Anna could take a leisurely walk back to town, enjoy a home cooked meal at the inn, and walk back in about the same amount of time it takes to interrogate and kill a cultist :joy:

@Cortillaen
Thinking a bit more about the cultist prisoners and how Anna might approach the situation. I was also reading the religion entries for Calistria and Sarenrae to better understand how her new comrades in arms might see matters. (Whether she would actually know anything about the tenants of these deities… I kind of doubt it)

Apologies for metagaming, but I see that one of Valkyne’s anathemas is failing to take revenge. That is pretty metal. Anyway, Anna, being a lawful good worshipper of Apsu, I feel like she could go either way with these cultists of Dahak. On the one hand, Apsu and Dahak are mortal enemies (although I get the feeling that Apsu is somewhat of a reluctant combatant against his son.) so from that point of view she might be inclined to not interfere with whatever gruesome fate Valkyne has in store for these evildoers.

On the other hand, Apsu being a lawful good deity, and silver dragons being known for their chivalry, I am also inclined to think that she would offer them their lives in exchange for renouncing their allegiance to Dahak in the presence of a cleric (which it turns out we have). If the they refused then, well, they had their chance. If they accept then spare their lives but turn them into the authorities in Breechill (perhaps after spending some time in the cells upstairs).

On the other, other hand if Valkyne steadfastly insists on revenge, then Anna, being new to the party (and civilized lands more generally) is unlikely to challenge him and will instead carry on the rest of the adventure with grim resolve.

Or if this is all too complicated then we can skip the RP bits and get on with the adventure :joy:. I do find our characters and their motivations fascinating though.

Valk won’t really mind if someone actually gets the Tweedles to truly turn over a new leaf, though he’ll be understandably suspicious of claims that they have. They didn’t do enough in the way of fighting for him to care much. His perspective is along the lines of karma or cosmic balance: Anyone who does evil to innocents needs to receive threefold the pain they gave. In particular, he applies that anathema to allowing a wrong to go unanswered.

For these guys, they don’t really have any significant wrongs to right, but they also seem to be pretty dedicated to Dahak and destroying the world. In that case, Valk is just a pragmatist: if they aren’t going to give up on those plans, it’s to dangerous to leave them alive. And if they have to be disposed of, we might as well get some benefit out of the process. No concerns about redemption here. :rofl:

In other news: the Gods and Magic PDF will be available on Wednesday. If anyone is undecided on it, I’ll be picking it up and can give you my impressions next weekend.

Well Rockie is ambivalent on what happens to the Monkey guys. His goddess would like to have people/creatures be given a chance to be redeemed. BUt the situation we are in at the moment doesn’t lend itself to that.

As to the bear, well I was going to say I would be all for dragging it out of there until Rando said it was only a mile from Breechill. I suppose if we wait until we hit level 3, I could use a combination of Calm emotions and Remove fear to get the bear to calm down. Since he just ate 2 birds, and whatever he fed on of the cultists before we went after him he is likely not hungry at the moment. If I heal him as well, the combination of the three might get it to the point where we can lead it out of the dungeon to let it go. But I am not sure if I have to rest for 8 hours to get a new level spells. So that might negate the Bear being hungry.

Mith

As just a note, unless it has been errata’d You cannot have a Animal companion and a Bonded Animal according to the Archives of Nethys. But I might be able to use the Gnome Heritage Feat Animal Accomplice to turn one of the pups into a familiar.

Mith

Well, Huulm (or me rather) is in the hospital for a couple/few days while I have a procedure done for an ongoing sinusitis issues. I’ll jump back into the dialogue when I get back.

Good Luck and Get better…

Mith

Get well soon, Ryukan.

Also, upon further reflection, since it turns out that Anna’s Dragon Claws give her cold resistance, and since Rando already said I could drop my original heritage choice, I can pick up the skilled heritage along with thievery. That will give Anna expert thievery at level 5. If things get really bad I can deduct a point from acrobatics and take thievery to master down the road. This should help make things easier for the party if not exactly ideal. Hopefully a fifth player will be able to join us at some point and maybe we can convince them to pick up thievery instead :joy: