Help me understand the truth about SC!

Game Development Star Citizen
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No there is a pledge store. There is nothing in the pledge store that is not going to be available for in game credits. What you selected from the website was the latest concept which is available as a pledge reward. Kickstarter is full of similar projects and I don’t see everyone freaking out about every one of them.

And beyond the starter ship there is no “top tier” ship to own that will be the “end game” ship. This game is about player skill not grinding for gear. Owning a particular ship is not an unbalancing advantage over everyone else. I have seen ace pilots in starter ships take out noob pilots in ships that are awarded to $250 pledges.

Gaining access to ships before the game launches is not the same as a cash store that you are used to hearing about for other games. Mostly because of what I just said, gear grinds in other games ARE the game. In Star Citizen the gear is just dressing for your personal skill.

No matter if it is PvE or PvP.

I get it, if all you have ever experienced is games like Eve and WoW then it is hard to understand how SC is structured. You are used to levels and gear grinds and a cash shop would allow players to bypass that time sink which would give them some advantage. That is not how SC is built.

And what I typically find is that those who are not interested in being part of the project want to defend their position by ridiculing those who are part of the project. I have heard all of the phrases, “Cash grab, vaporware, scam, selling pixels, etc etc.”

I don’t get upset with people who don’t want to pledge for the game, so I am a bit baffled by those who get upset at those who do.

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BTW you can also buy credits in that “cash store” as you called it.
That is just further proof that the money you make in game is not what the game is about.

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Yeah I am in for several thousand as well in SC, but again it isn’t P2W. For one, it is player skill not ships that make the difference. I pretty much suck at dogfighting, so most of my money has gone into ships like the Orion, Endeavor, and sure I have an Idris along with a lot of other ships. I even have some fighters. Just because you have the ship doesn’t mean you have this “I win” button. Honestly, larger ships are more a “I lost it” button if you don’t have support vessels around to protect your ass.

So while I can see why some would think SC is P2W, honestly it is more like P2L because having those large ships just makes you a target. Also, base ships are just that, and there is sort of a leveling system for ships via ship upgrades, and those are most likely going to be more expensive than the ship itself.

And as previously said, there are no levels, no skills, no actual upgrade path for your character. It is much like say Quake in that sure you can pick up various weapons and armor, but it isn’t like Battlefield where you have to unlock weapons or get better perks. It is very much like an old school shooter like Doom. You only have what you can find.

I think many of us who have bought a lot of ships aren’t going to grab the biggest ship we have and head out on day one. That is just begging to get ganked. Nope, I probably will just fly my little Aurora for the first month or so to figure out where I want to go and what areas might be safe to bring out my Prospector or Orion if we have a bunch on at the time.

As far as will SC deliver, well I have been playing CR games for a few decades and I have a lot of trust in him, say more so than Wall Street, of which I have far more money in their hands than his. I feel it is more likely that we will have a financial collapse than CR not finishing SC. Of course if the former happens then the latter won’t be of consequence. Again, each person should make up their own mind. I am firmly in the CIG/CR will deliver group, it just may take a lot longer than anyone wants to wait. Given the scope leap in SC, that time is warranted.

In that regard, I am sure they could have had something playable out by now. Many companies release games before they should and then fix them if anyone is still playing. I think you need to consider that CIG has one shot at this for a couple of reasons. One, if they release something and it is crap, then they pretty much will lose most of their player base and more importantly the big publishers like EA, Activision, Bethesda will all point to this as a classic case of “i told you so” to prevent competition. To me, there is a lot riding on SC as far as setting an example. I think CR thinks the same and so his requirement for perfection is pretty high.

Anyway, I will end my rant here. :slight_smile: Have a great day!!!

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6K sounds like a lot to most people but if you can afford it and have faith in something you want to support why not.

I’m dropping $1,200 on a different game as I can afford it, it’s exactly the style of game play I want and I believe in the devs.

I think SC will come out in a few years and will be hugely successful. I haven’t and won’t back it yet though as it doesn’t really tick every box for my preferred style of game play. I’ll probably buy it later though and perhaps just be a warm body in somebody else’s ship.

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SC is a lot like Eve in that the “base” ship is essentially worthless, and players will end up investing far more than the hull is worth upgrading the ship. These upgrades are found in game, or bought with in-game currency, and a LOT of your effectiveness as a pilot/dogfighter will be in knowing and understanding these upgrades, when to overclock, which attacks go best against which defenses, etc. In short, the player is all that matters.

I’ll echo Sim, if you have even the slightest concerns, don’t back now. There is no rush, there are enough of us hardcore backers that we’ll keep the game funded. This is a crowdsourced game, the only revenue they have is pledging. There is no venture capitalist or publisher throwing money into the game, it’s just us.

And the game is absolutely coming out, there is no real question there. Where the question lies is in whether or not you (anyone) will like the game. It is impossible to meet all fan expectations, there are going to be a lot of upset people when the game is done, that is unavoidable, and that’s not unique to SC. Bethesda made decisions that made me not want to buy Fallout 76…that’s just how the market goes, can’t please everyone ,etc.

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Thanks for all the insight. A lot of interesting information and much to sift through. On review I am DEEPLY troubled by the cash shop. Roberts himself has said he wants to “allow” people to purchase items from the store that are also available in game (including ship upgrades) but doesn’t want any “exclusive” items in the cash shop. This is a bunch of double-talk baloney. It’s a full-on cash shop. In another EVE example, there is a cash shop and you can buy in-game currency (basically), but it has the additional barrier of time-earned pilot skill which can force you to develop flying skill along with training. Sure, someone can use cash and buy the best ship in the universe, but they very well could (and do, I’ve seen someone buy training injectors for a Titan and proceed to fly it out and derp a $2k usd ship). The player’s choice of skill advancement is critical to this working…whereas SC doesn’t appear to have such a system. Ships get derped by the thousands there, and there are steep consequences sometimes. So, as someone mentioned “pay to lose” earlier, I can understand and respect that, but it doesn’t work without all the other pieces in place imo. I would also say that the addition of training skill injectors is what kind of pushed me out of the game. While it increased the number low-real-skill pilots flying ships with cash-purchased-skills for the veteran pilots to kill, it still hit me the wrong way.

I really don’t care what the game costs (within reason) and I’m not opposed to spending a couple hundred to get started, but what I care about is my experience. I want consequences. I also raise an eyebrow to anything that resembles P2W.

This brings me to my most critical question: What are the consequences? What happens when my ship 'splodes? When my character dies?

In other words, I haven’t seen or read anything that refutes the idea that this is P2W, other than seeing someone say “it’s not P2W”. Also, it seems on the surface to be more of a co-op game than an MMO. There’s nothing wrong with that of course. The idea of a next-gen sci-fi simulator is right up my alley, so I want this to be what I’m looking for! But I can’t force it. I’m still undecided…I almost want to buy the starter package just to hop in and see for myself.

For that matter…with all the players backing it and buying big ships, there will need to be big crews. Does everyone want to play the hero and be the owner/pilot of their own ship? What advantages are there to being a crew member? Fun is an advantage of course! Fun to me is a process of risk/reward in any MMO.

Is there a good risk/reward mechanic in SC or is it more of a casual jaunt through space?

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Actually I can buy a Titan AND the toon to fly it, with all of the skills, without every having logged in (https://www.playerauctions.com/eve-account/). That’s true of every MMO, honestly.

Consequences? SC has permanent death (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/12879-Death-Of-A-Spaceman). You die and you are gone, your heir takes over what’s left, after the inheritance taxes. You lose your ship without insurance, it’s gone. You also lost all of your cargo, your upgrades, and a % of the reputation you’ve been working on. No clones, just dead. And the no clones also means no “quick travel” across the galaxy. It can take 40 min to cross a star system, so you don’t get to have a ton of clones and ships spread all over the galaxy to hop around. You want to go somewhere? You’re flying there, by hand.

It’s not possible to refute P2W because it’s a completely subjective claim. It’s an MMO, you can’t “win”, by definition. In Eve, you can buy literally everything, but unless your “win” is “I have the most money”, you can’t win Eve. You can’t “buy” big sectors of 0.0 space. You can buy a titan, and an account to fly it, but that in no way means you’ve won anything. SC is the same way. You can “buy” a big ship…but you can’t fly it alone, so you “buy” some friends I guess and “pay” them to fly it with you…you’ve still not “won” anything. You take it to fight some guys, you’ve still not “won”. Having a Javelin does not advance the story for you any faster than having an Aurora. You can’t own space, you can’t claim territory beyond small patches of land, and the UEE enforces that, unless it’s in lawless space. I can’t argue P2W with you because there’s no space to argue, it’s completely subjective.

Are there advantages to being crew? Do you like being crew? If so, yes :slight_smile: It lets you fly bigger ships and be part of larger operations. If you like flying your own ship, then that works too. If you want to be a part of something bigger, then join up with folks and man a station or fly escort. The only real advantage of being crew is getting to be on the bigger ships you might not be able to afford on your own.

The game is all about risk reward, from top to bottom. Piracy is a profession, there are ships devoted to that career. CIG regularly stats that anything worth having is only found in the riskier areas. Again, risk and reward are 100% subjective. For me, flying out into the middle of nowhere and scanning for anomalies is a great reward. For you it might be bringing in a big bounty, killing pirates or being a pirate. That’s the beauty of SC, many different risks for many different rewards.

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woops

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There is also S42 which is the single player/coop game. It probably won’t be as large as the PU, but you certainly won’t have to worry about “Krakens” upsetting the balance so to speak. I don’t know if that is a separate package or an add on now. I backed in 2012, so I got both.

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If you still do not understand the difference between the traditional or common “cash shop” and what SC is doing and if you still do not understand the difference between Eve character skills and SC player skill, then I am not sure I can help you understand anything else about the game.

Those two things are fundamental to Star Citizen.

You mention Eve cash shop but with the requirement to have skills to use the stuff. Well SC is not that different but the skill required is on the Player not the Character AND in order to outfit that ship you are still going to have to spend time building a reputation with the factions that sell the upgrades. I am not sure how else I can compare this to other games because there is nothing like this in other games.

People see the big ships for sale and think “those are the end game top tier ships in a cash shop”.
That is wrong. There are no top tier ships.

I cannot stress this fact enough: This game is not about gear or loot.

I am not by any means suggesting that you should invest in SC, that is a personal choice you have to make. But if your reasoning for not becoming a backer is because there is a cash shop and no skills then you are not seeing SC for what it is.

EDIT:
Re-reading this after posting it appears much harsher than I intended it to be.
I am passionate about the game so in my excitement I can sometimes answer faster than I should and that comes out more aggressive than I want.

I think your biggest hang up right now, RyanX, is that you are coming from Eve. So all of your perspective is based on experiences in Eve. You mention that you could buy the Titan in that game. I am assuming that is a top tier end game type of very large ship.

I only played Eve for a very short time, less than a month I think. It was simply not for me. So it is likely best if I am not the one to try and explain the differences between these two games. Macallen has played Eve (I think) and understands that game far better than me, so I will leave it to him to answer your questions.

I just get a bit bothered by people calling SC a cash shop P2W game. There is no cash shop, there is no P2W in SC but to explain the reasons why you have to understand the basis for SC.

I would suggest you read a LOT of the information available here to understand more about SC. That is a single topic but the Shipyard series has a TON of information that might answer some questions. Also there is the article about “Death of a Spaceman” that you can check out.

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The biggest difference for me (and my biggest frustration) between Eve and SC is player skill.

In Eve, if you invest the time, you can be a bad ass. You get the skills, you get the cash, you get the gear, you’re a badass. There is minimal skill 1:1 in Eve, because it’s “lock and push a button”, then your ships sort of autopilot around going pew pew at each other. The skill is in knowing how to rig your ship and having the right number of friends. In the end, the best rig wins, or the biggest mob. In short, Eve is strategy, not tactics.

In SC, you can do all of that and still get your ass beat by an Aurora with Size 2 guns because, despite how much money you’ve spent, if your skill is so bad that you couldn’t hit water if you fell out of a boat, then there’s no help for you. You can be in the biggest ship imaginable, with the biggest guns in the game, but if you can’t actually shoot, YOU, your skill, then none of it matters. There is no “lock and your weapons shoot” in SC. I did fleet ops in Eve where I was AFK a lot of the time, because I was a tackler. Lock, orbit, fire, go make a sandwich while the big guys slam my target into the ground. Come back, am I dead? Nope, ok, next target.

NONE of that will be in SC. Hell, you can’t afk mine in SC, or the rock will explode and kill you and blow up your ship.

Why is this a frustration for me? Because I suck. I’m a horrible dogfighter, which means no matter how much I’ve paid into the game, there are aspects of it I will never be able to experience all of it because a 12 year old in his dragonfly can destroy me in my Idris.

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P2W is very subjective as mentioned in the posts above. In stating that I also would say that two players of equal skills in a duel (say pirate versus non-pirate) and one having an Aurora (a starter ship) versus the other having a superhornet (something more than a starter ship) the superhornet player would likely win more often than not. This advantage to the superhornet player is not a lasting advantage as it will not be long time before the Aurora player is able to upgrade his ship to a superhornet.

As to advantages of players who have purchased a large stable of ships over those who just buy a single starter ship - well there really isn’t an advantage other than having a bigger choice “toolbox” to achieve the goal for that day’s game play. SC isn’t about winning because of “X” . It is more of a sandbox to play out a science fiction space/exploration sim with npc villians (Vanduuls).

As to the “cash shop” comment I would agree that SC does have it in the form of ship sales but this does not give one player a measurable advantage over another in the long term. Ship sales allow people who do not have a lot of time to grind up to buy larger ships to acquire the ship of their dreams in a shorter time and to play the game the way that they want to. For some people this could mean a space farming ship (Endeavor with farming pods) could be playable with friends in 3 months time versus grinding for xx years to acquire the ship.

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I bought an Endeavor with the farming pods so I can grow space weed. :slight_smile: Yeah buddy!!! Smoke up with da Bro!!! I wonder if I can get fuzzy balls to drape around my cockpit window?

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Are you sure you are talking about the same EVE online that I am talking about? Because this is/was not my experience in the least. I don’t know what you’re Eve experience was like, though and it may not have involved much null-sec. You couldn’t afk mine in EVE either or someone will come and blow you up. Eve in null-sec is a different game than what you describe, and honestly where I spent 99% of my time.

I was in a major corporation (top 20 corp in pvp kills all-time) in null sec for several years, and it was never like what you described. I’m no super pilot or anything but I spent the majority of my time in pvp…usually small group but plenty of big fleets and some 1v1. I’ve blown up many thousands of ships and lost a couple hundred myself.

“minimal skill” is laughable…
“lock and push a button” just NO…

You can do those things if you want, but someone with better skill and a lesser ship will destroy someone who has spent money in lieu of skill and a ship fairly often. Piloting skill is paramount. Tactics is relevant in Eve.

I really don’t know where the idea comes from that the skill required is not on the player in EVE. Not only do you need player skill, but you also need to plan your skill path. It’s a double walled barrier. The point was that you could spend all the money you want, but without player skill in Eve, you still won’t be very effective. Unless you want to stay in “safe” space…but that’s not where the excitement in Eve comes from. So the skill comes from the player AND the character both. But I argue most comes from the player. The argument that SC is different because SC relies on player skill is just wrong (and maybe why Ranter posted the popcorn pic, he may have known all this already.)

Also, Eve online is not necessarily about gear or loot either. It’s about doing whatever you want in space, whether that be pvp, mining, exploration, piracy etc. That’s why I get confused about some of the descriptions I’m hearing because I hear “it’s not like Eve” followed by a description of SC that sounds like Eve.

Now before someone says “why don’t you go play Eve then?” Because I don’t want to. I’m intrigued by the idea of multi-crew ships, and the fact that my wife may decide to play also whereas she won’t touch Eve. All of this is about me trying to find out about the risk/reward mechanic because that’s where my a large portion of my fun comes from in MMOs. The other portion is the social aspect. How populated is the verse? I want a vibrant online world where I see plenty of other players about.

Eve had a cash shop that did not matter. I hear SC has a cash shop that does not matter. Cool. I will have to dip in SC to see what it’s about, which is really what you all have shown me. Sometimes I can get a good feel for the game from descriptions, but what I’m getting here is that SC is different and it will be one of those I actually have to try first.

This is what is still troubling me though. I fear that the verse will be empty without more PC interaction other than your local crew or fleet. What’s the purpose of this being online then? Is this even an MMO more than just in name only?

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In Eve, you are in your ship. You see an enemy ship. Precisely what skill is needed to click “lock” and then “fire”? Your beam/missile/projectiles hit. Pew pew. You right click, orbit at a given range, and then wait until the fight is over, maybe hit 1-2 buttons. I’ve participated in 3000 ship fights in 0.0 space…granted as a lil bitch tackler, but I was there. The skill is in planning the encounter, but once you’re in the fight, “lock and toggle your fire button” is the combat. Played Eve on and off for 4 years (kept being drug back after rage quitting, over and over). The guys who manage the massive battles and huge areas of space certainly require skill, but when you get down to 2 ships shooting at each other, it might as well be galaga for the skill required.

In SC, there is no lock, there is no “pew”, it’s a cross hair, with a lead indicator, different weapons have different indicators, there’s heat and power management, shield management, and then there’s flying the ship because the guy you’re shooting doesn’t want to be shot at. It’s straight up dogfighting, as cinematic as CR can make it. If you don’t have the skills, you can have 10x the ship and still not land a single shot.

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Holy cow. Logistics? Interdiction? Electronic warfare? You can play all of those and orbiting doesn’t matter a lick and has to be run on manual piloting in many situations. There is much much much more than dps. One little frigate has been the demise of many unsuspecting miners/ratters because of skill alone. Because a ship has a target lock it means there is no skill involved? Locking up with someone is only one aspect. Pulling range, drone loadouts, man…so many things need to be managed…heat, just wow, knowing the limits of your enemies ships. Sure some fights can be a quick lockup and over, but that’s not been my experience.

And dogfighting is not that impressive to me, especially when you can have several other players operating each individual gun. I’m not saying it would be easy or that I would be great at it, but it’s not anything that separates it for me.

I’m still more interested in the social aspect and how the verse is populated.

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Buying it now…Aurora here I come.

And I did find the referrral generator so whoever gets the 5k…surprise!

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“I fear that the verse will be empty without more PC interaction other than your local crew or fleet. What’s the purpose of this being online then? Is this even an MMO more than just in name only?”

Chris Roberts (CR) had stated that he didn’t want a game that would be boring just flying ships. By this he meant that as a cargo ship pilot you can pretty much expect to be attacked by npc pirates in the safer areas near UEE space. There is always a chance that a player pirate may risk attacking in the safer UEE areas though. The farther out you go from UEE space the more of a wild west environment you will encounter. This is where you will have a greater chance of meeting player pirates instead of npc types. Going out further into the wild also means likely greater rewards for commerce endeavors to offset the player pirate risk and that is the carrot that they are putting out to encourage pvp play.

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Reading this thread for the first time and man am I exhausted. My experience with SC goes back to 2014 when I first backed if for $45. I have only spent an additional $15 to melt my starter ship and get an Avenger.

I don’t understand the amount of hate and anger that people put towards a project or a community that supports said project that they don’t agree with. The amount of backlash I see against anything and everything on the Internet makes me just point people in the direction of the source and let their mind do the rest. I am too old (not really, just 36) to try to calmly explain things over and over again to people who relish in getting their anger on and don’t really want to listen to what I have to say anyways.

I can say that with my experience in SC, that I can out fly and even gain very fast tactical advantages on most players who have ships far above the cost of mine. Also, those bigger and “better” ships require, absolutely require, a multi-crew to be effective. Otherwise, the player is flying a giant empty ship with little to no functionality and slowly putting through the emptiness of space, alone.

I played EvE online as well for quite a while and can relate to the time committment it takes to fly a bigger and more advanced ship. In SC, I have shot off the engines of many Constellations, Starfarers, and Caterpillars and then boarded the ship to get into a firefight with the captain. Sometimes I win and get myself a free ship to fly around in until I log off and he loses nothing. He just respawns, claims it in insurance, and in about 5 minutes has himself a brand spanking new ship.

I hope people who do pledge their hard earned money towards anything, find enjoyment in it.

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